The Legends weren't flawless...

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Pete McCabe » January 18th, 2012, 10:06 pm

I think having the cards selected is a bad idea. It's dead time and adds nothing to the routine. But then, I think this about a whole lot of card routines for which a freely selected card is standard.

I think it would be better to use specific cards that can amplify the presentation. For Card Warpor at least, most presentations I've seenthis means picture cards.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Timothy Hyde » January 19th, 2012, 12:51 am

Richard Kaufman wrote: I did it for an engineer once and it was immediately apparent to him how the card was folded in order to achieve the effect.


I did card warp for an astronaut once. He kind've smiled and said "you forget I've been trained to think in 3 dimensions." I didn't press him for further info but I could tell he knew.
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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Q. Kumber » January 19th, 2012, 4:05 am

Eugene Burger has also mentioned that he has had architects let him know they twigged the method in Card Warp.

Perhaps not the best trick for spatial thinkers.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 19th, 2012, 8:03 am

I wonder how those same spatial thinkers would respond to Giles's Contortionist.
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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Doc Dixon » January 19th, 2012, 8:35 am

Timothy Hyde wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote: I did it for an engineer once and it was immediately apparent to him how the card was folded in order to achieve the effect.


I did card warp for an astronaut once. He kind've smiled and said "you forget I've been trained to think in 3 dimensions." I didn't press him for further info but I could tell he knew.


Tim,

I thought you were smarter than that. You don't do card warp for an astronaut.

You do...

here it comes...

this is going to be bad...

brace yourself...


Out Of This World.

DD

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Asser Andersen » January 19th, 2012, 2:48 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:If we were to view "Card Warp" as though it is problematic, what then are the problems?

Is the idea that half the card can be reversed unconvincing?

Does the handling fail in some way?

Does the ending fail in some way?

Let's take it apart!

I'll start by saying that bringing out two cards in isolation didn't seem right to me, and Gene Maze's solution of having the two cards chosen from the deck was a great one. Half the deck is pre-torn, so a card is selected from each half. (This idea was published by someone else.) So, that solves what I felt was a problem about how to get into the trick. I never saw a version where the rip was made during the performance that satisfied me.

Who goes next?


Based on my experience, I have never had a problem with using a pre-torn card. I keep the card in the same wallet as the dollar bill I use for cover for the reversal of the card. The motivation for using a card is that is has a convenient size and that it can be folded in two easily distinguishable ways. I also always use a picture card. The card is just a tool to demonstrate the amazing properties of the folded dollar bill.

The version of Cardwarp that I use (an adaptation of Dr. Strangetrick by Michael Cloose) contains several convincers that makes it more difficult (I think) to work out the M.O. for spatial thinkers.

It really is one of my favorite tricks and my audiences like it too :)

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby erdnasephile » January 19th, 2012, 3:23 pm

I think one problematic issue is presenting the effect as half of the card as turning over. Rather it's far stronger to present as the entire card turns inside out.

Once they start thinking that it's really only half the card turns over, it brings the spatially minded spectator that much closer to the truth.

IMHO, the half/half display should be viewed akin to the visible color changing knife--that is: only a transitory state on the way to fully turning inside out.

Therefore, I think the most convincing handlings enable you to show the whole card turning.

Cervon's presentation deals with this issue very well.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 19th, 2012, 3:33 pm

Anyone using a warp for an ace turnover in their twisting?
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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 19th, 2012, 3:48 pm

That's interesting: the last Ace turns over half at a time.
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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Timothy Hyde » January 20th, 2012, 12:35 am

Q. Reynolds wrote:Eugene Burger has also mentioned that he has had architects let him know they twigged the method in Card Warp.

Perhaps not the best trick for spatial thinkers.


The astronaut was Paul Scully-Power who was the first Aussie in space.

I can test out the theory that all astronauts will work it out, in a few weeks when I get to work with Greg Chamitoff on an assignment in New Zealand. However as he lists magic as one of his hobbies and filmed the first magic show in space, alongside Richard Garriott, he may not be the best random sample.
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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Pendragon » January 24th, 2012, 5:44 am

This thread began with "Just or fun" and I am not sure that deconstructing our legends is fun. They stand for more: an idealized image that inspires those who follow. What one thinks of a particular effect or move isn't the stuff of legends. Suddenly I am channeling Joseph Campbell. Their entire life, their work, their journey, however you want to describe it, defines synergy: the sum is greater than it's parts.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby West McDonough » January 24th, 2012, 7:40 am

He talks like that all the time.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 24th, 2012, 7:58 am

@JP - the contrast between a society's legends (or icons) and social norms is telling. Deconstruction may amount to vivisection when working within a culture.

The self liberator, the collecter of clever ... what folks hold on to about them is likely a distinct topic for research.

There's likely a parellel between natural selection in the wild and magic tricks in the shop. An ecology of novelty balenced by utility?

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Pendragon » January 24th, 2012, 8:32 pm

JT - Agreed, we hold on to what we need, that has always been the purpose of legend. There is research on this topic but not all of it is found in academia. Fiction has given us more insight into the collective consciousness of myth than any academic deconstruction.

When I was released, I gave myself less than a 50-50 chance of making it through the next year. I had lost everything an individual could lose and more. When I met West our relationship began simply as two people who loved many of the same things including speculative fiction. In conversation, I mentioned my interest in a character, Dream, I had heard about that is found in the works of Neil Gaiman. West gave me the entire Sandman collection as a gift. In the first book Dream is captured and held for decades. When he is finally released he must recover three objects which are the icons of his position as the anthropomorphic incarnation of the dream state. Reading these stories helped me cope with my problems even though his were high fantasy and mine merely human. As a homage to Gaiman I perfected my new work on the Sands of the Desert and gave it a presentation that is an allusion to Neil's Dream Lord. West knew Gaiman and thanks to her, and her friends who work in the genre, I was able to meet him and give him a DVD of my performance of the Sands. My healing process could not have happened without my need for myth and the work of a legendary writer. West's understanding of this process, greater than my own, gave me the confidence to explore these themes on stage.

We need legends and when academics look too closely I think they often see the failures of their own endeavors projected on to their hero's. If that makes it easier for them to except their own frailty, fine, this too is a form of healing. When it becomes an intellectual game, it meaningless: which came first the chicken or the egghead.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby El Harvey Oswald » January 25th, 2012, 4:11 pm

I doubt very much that discussing whether the Flushtration Count is any good either diminishes the legacy of Bro. Hamman or overlays a too-rational approach and thereby dilutes the mythology of a legend. There's a permanence to the original aura of these legends that's unaffected by the inevitably uneven quality of how their contributions are reproduced. Still, some things are better than others -- the Elmsley Count is better than the Flushtration Count, for instance -- and it's worth having the conversation that establishes, or challenges that. In any event, even the most eloquent defenses of the power of myth won't curtail the quite natural tendencies to analyze and/or deconstruct it. The worthy remain standing, often fortified by criticism.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 25th, 2012, 6:26 pm

@JP Thanks for sharing part of your story about rebuilding and finding something special in Gaiman's character and his bag of sand.

Folks might find Moore's Promethea more directly instructive about stories, myths and meaning - as well as magic. For the more jaded perhaps a read of Warren Ellis's story "Planet Fiction" in Planetary might serve.

"We're in a strange relationship with our fiction" indeed.

Jon
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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Pendragon » January 25th, 2012, 8:39 pm

@EHO
I have no disagreement with your point. These discussions are important, even in Grand Illusion where almost the only way I can have an intelligent conversation is by talking to myself, which I do anyway. But, you present a salient argument while some others have not. Looking for gaffes and less than stellar effects in the work of our legends for mere sport ("Just for fun") isn't the same as looking for a better technique and discussing the pros and cons of a particular move. Deconstruction for deconstruction's sake helps no one except the PHD candidate who ran out of ideas.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 26th, 2012, 7:54 am

It's not as if they were stupid.
Better questions include:
1) What drove them to settle for "that"
2) What did they do to compensate for what we see as weaknesses
and
3) Did they stay with that item or did they go back and rework it?
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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby El Harvey Oswald » January 26th, 2012, 12:18 pm

Well said, as always, JP. Your candor and insight, linking an extraordinary personal experience to the presentation of a classic effect, is a singular contribution. And for those who have not seen Jonathan's most recent lecture notes, they are highly recommended -- though I particularly value having had the opportunity to be present to what I believe was this lecture's first public presentation. We're fortunate to still have a voice among us so deep in both experience and the abstractions that can be inferred from experience.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Pendragon » January 26th, 2012, 11:52 pm

@JT No, they weren't stupid, but even the questions you list (except the last) requires a subjective opinion that changes everything. You can't infer an artist's motivation because often even they don't know it.

I try not to sound pretentiousalthough I am certain my efforts fall shortwhen I speak as an artist. I think of myself as a magician in the broadest sense of the word. I am far less prone to evoke the mystical than someone like Jeff McBride (not that there is anyone like Jeff). But, if you don't feel the undefinable rush and mystery of creating something magical, you are going about it the wrong way. I can't tell you what drove others to present an effect the way they did, any more than I can tell you what really drove me. I can write a respectable answer that might satisfy some, but the real answer is formed by decades of experience that asserts itself automatically and unconsciously. And compensating for a weakness imagined by others? It's never entered my mind; I couldn't create that way.

Richiardi was the greatest illusionist I ever saw, although Siegfried was my favorite. Richiardi seemed possessed at times, I could feel the demons within him. Siegfried's mastery included a confidence and charm that glowed. As soon as he walked onstage, it lit up by force of will alone. While both men have influenced my work, I couldn't begin to answer, honestly, the questions you ask. I saw technique overcome design shortcomings as in Richiardi's brilliant hoop pass (discussed on my DVD set). I saw Siegfried mirror the trepidation of the audience in the way faced "big" cats while Roy seemed more cat than human. Dealing with the reality of limitation is part of performance.

When Orson Welles filmed "Othello" his costumes were delayed. With actors on the clock he had to think fast or lose time, money, and personnel. His solution was genius. He shot the opening scene (Iago professing his hatred for his master to Roderigo: "I hate the Moor") in a steam bath with the two actors draped in towels, the sweat dripping down their faces. Critics raved about the scene, never knowing the genesis was equal parts inspiration and desperation... and perspiration (pun unavoidable). While inventing a card move or perfecting a routine seems a less dramatic example, the mind of a legendary card expert is no less unfathomable.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Pendragon » January 27th, 2012, 1:13 am

@EHO
You are right, It was my first go at the new lecture. A lecturer dropped out close to the date of the lecture. Jack called and asked if I could fill in. I had already presented my touring/WMS lecture at the Magic Castle and was working on something new. West and I worked very hard to complete the new lecture in time. I really like this lecture because it allows me to elaborate on the thoughts behind the new mentalism style I have been developing for the past 5 years: what I privately call the OCD act. The lecture notes were completed only a day before I gave the lecture and I missed a major typo. I spelled Gilbreath with an a instead of the i. I didn't notice it so West thought it was the correct spelling, which in my case is always a dangerous assumption.

I also came up with a different way to end Binary. I have corrected the spelling and added the alternative ending to the notes. I can't retro fit notes already sold, so FYI.
Instead of dealing cards into two rows, deal out 26 pairs face down. I know that sounds like it requires a lot of time. It's less time than it sounds and can be covered with dialogue concerning the nature of pattern recognition. As you begin to turn over the pairs, each containing a red and black card, your pace increases until it is nearly manic. At the end of the revelation your attitude is more mental exhaustion and less Voila! I like this better than the two rows because you can't maintain color continuity as in "Out of this World" only the mixed-color-pairs. With the rows you get streaks that end abruptly and if you deal separate pairs face up you get verbal streaks (red, black, red, black, red, black, black,red) that end the same. By dealing face down and turning over the pair of cards simultaneously you can create a continuity by calling out "red, black, red, black, red, black." No one will notice that sometimes the red is left of the black and sometimes it is right, they just hear and see red-black until the table is covered with the opposing colored pairs. QED

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Pendragon » January 27th, 2012, 2:35 am

@EHO
Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked (for forgetting a minor detail in the previous post) have been sacked... Als wik, als als wik... see the lvely lakes, the wnderful telephone system and mni interesting furri animals, including the majestik mse... who passed away because he inadvertently walked to Sarah Palin's backyard.

You deal the cards into separate pairs that cover the table so that when you are turning them over your are indiscriminately grabbing pairs of cards, right, left and center.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby El Harvey Oswald » January 27th, 2012, 11:36 am

I recall your giving an interview in which you described the concept for the new act. It sounded like a nearly impossible task, and with dauntingly ultimate stakes for you: integrating ADD into a mentalism act and, above all, creating a worthy and entirely distinct successor to one of the iconic stage acts of the past 30 years. So there has been an additional admiration and astonishment to see it brought off so well. Apart from being great magic, true to who you are, it's a source of inspiration: Far more can be accomplished in one year than seems likely, and creative focus can be a source of rescue from even the deepest despair. You're candidly grateful to those who saved you and, already, you've likely done the same for others. Good story, even better person.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby El Harvey Oswald » January 27th, 2012, 11:53 am

"It is I, Arthur, son of Uther Pendragon, from the castle of Camelot. King of the Britons, defeater of the Saxons, Sovereign of all England!"

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 27th, 2012, 12:33 pm

Sean Piper wrote:Just for fun... what effects/moves/sleights/etc. published by a legend of magic (Vernon, Marlo, Hamman, etc.) was, in your mind, a complete dud :) ...


Nate Leipzig reported difficulties mading the sympathetic cards work for audiences. In theory a fine plot. In performance ... something of a challenge.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby El Harvey Oswald » January 27th, 2012, 1:19 pm

Helder and Derek rose to the challenge with their performance

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Pendragon » January 27th, 2012, 3:22 pm

I was in the Palace of Mystery that week, where the scheduled showtimes matches the Peller Theater, so we weren't able to see Helder and Derek. West and I were really looking forward to their show. I asked Derek when they were going to present it again and he told me they have talked to Jack about booking a future date. I hope it is the near future because I heard nothing but raves about their performance. I am running for the Board of Trustees at the Magic Castle and one thing I really want to do is encourage the performers in the Peller to really integrate the their acts. Many already do like Derek and Helder, Michael Carbonaro and Eugene and Misty Lee and me, many don't, it's just two parlor or close-up acts. The Peller was intended for experimental theater, this should the norm.

I really hope to be elected because, "a system of government should be based on a mandate from the masses, no some farcical aquatic ceremony where some watery tart throws some sword at you."

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby El Harvey Oswald » January 27th, 2012, 3:57 pm

It marked a paradigm shift. They are, together, the new Vernon, and will accomplish nothing less than elevating magic to a respected position among the performing arts. New legends, often flawless, in other words.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Matthew Field » January 28th, 2012, 5:12 am

Truly, the Legends of Magic were not flawless.

Why, it was even reported that Hofzinser once wore brown shoes with a blue suit.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Smurf » January 29th, 2012, 3:23 pm

[size:11pt]So JP is an MP fan! IF you get elected, purge the violence inherent in the system and eliminate repression![/size]

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Pendragon » January 29th, 2012, 10:45 pm

Huge Fan, my Magic Newswire column (Jonathan Pendragon and the Search for the Grail) is a nod to the boys. West came to my families home for Thanksgiving and we all got started doing Monty Python scenes. I thought "she is going to think were nuts" but she joined in and did the scene you just referenced in it's entirety! I couldn't have done that.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Edward » January 29th, 2012, 11:03 pm

Matthew Field wrote:Truly, the Legends of Magic were not flawless.

Why, it was even reported that Hofzinser once wore brown shoes with a blue suit.

Matt Field


Oh the horrors :)

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 6th, 2018, 9:56 am

Ian Kendall wrote:...Card Warp ... the standard routine with two unprepared cards (incidentally, not many people know that Roy's original handling used unprepared cards as well; the work was put in to make things easier for people less comfortable with sleight of hand). ...


Where is that original handling? I have the Davenports manuscript. It describes the trick as staring with a piece of cardboard folder (you can use a playing card) and a playing card that is prepared by carefully folding and ....
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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby erdnasephile » February 6th, 2018, 10:17 am

Timothy Hyde wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote: I did it for an engineer once and it was immediately apparent to him how the card was folded in order to achieve the effect.


I did card warp for an astronaut once. He kind've smiled and said "you forget I've been trained to think in 3 dimensions." I didn't press him for further info but I could tell he knew.


Dentists are also not the ideal audience for the standard handling of Card Warp in this respect.

(For those types, I'd recommend Tom Frame's devastating version).

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Philippe Billot » February 6th, 2018, 10:29 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Ian Kendall wrote:...Card Warp ... the standard routine with two unprepared cards (incidentally, not many people know that Roy's original handling used unprepared cards as well; the work was put in to make things easier for people less comfortable with sleight of hand). ...


Where is that original handling? I have the Davenports manuscript. It describes the trick as staring with a piece of cardboard folder (you can use a playing card) and a playing card that is prepared by carefully folding and ....


See in The Linking Ring, Vol. 54, no 6, June 1974, page 78. Inspired by Into the 4th Dimension... and Beyond (1973) by Jeff Busby.
At the IBM convention, September 19, 1973, Davenport sold all his stock (220 packets) of Roy Walton's version entitled Card Wrap.
And yes, the trick is made with a card and a piece of cardboard.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby erdnasephile » February 6th, 2018, 1:06 pm

Philippe Billot wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Ian Kendall wrote:...Card Warp ... the standard routine with two unprepared cards (incidentally, not many people know that Roy's original handling used unprepared cards as well; the work was put in to make things easier for people less comfortable with sleight of hand). ...


Where is that original handling? I have the Davenports manuscript. It describes the trick as staring with a piece of cardboard folder (you can use a playing card) and a playing card that is prepared by carefully folding and ....


See in The Linking Ring, Vol. 54, no 6, June 1974, page 78. Inspired by Into the 4th Dimension... and Beyond (1973) by Jeff Busby.
At the IBM convention, September 19, 1973, Davenport sold all his stock (220 packets) of Roy Walton's version entitled Card Wrap.
And yes, the trick is made with a card and a piece of cardboard.


M. Billot: Thank you for that reference. May I please ask: does that reference include a routine starting with an untorn card?

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby performer » February 6th, 2018, 4:48 pm

I have no idea what this thread is about since I haven't read it. However, not only do I think most of the "legends" in magic were not flawless I think most of them were crap. Not that I am of a cynical nature of course...........

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Philippe Billot » February 6th, 2018, 5:47 pm

erdnasephile wrote:
Philippe Billot wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Where is that original handling? I have the Davenports manuscript. It describes the trick as staring with a piece of cardboard folder (you can use a playing card) and a playing card that is prepared by carefully folding and ....


See in The Linking Ring, Vol. 54, no 6, June 1974, page 78. Inspired by Into the 4th Dimension... and Beyond (1973) by Jeff Busby.
At the IBM convention, September 19, 1973, Davenport sold all his stock (220 packets) of Roy Walton's version entitled Card Wrap.
And yes, the trick is made with a card and a piece of cardboard.


M. Billot: Thank you for that reference. May I please ask: does that reference include a routine starting with an untorn card?


No, the trick starts with a torn card. But I made a mistake. It is not explained in The Linking Ring. It's simply a review. The trick is in The Complete Walton, Volume 3, page 247.

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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 6th, 2018, 6:13 pm

I personally have not seen a Walton handling that starts with two un-torn cards.
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Re: The Legends weren't flawless...

Postby erdnasephile » February 6th, 2018, 6:28 pm

Hopefully, Mr. Kendall will weigh in with some light on the subject.


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